I always have to shake my head when people quote bible scriptures especially when they quote them in certain instances as if they know the exact interpertation.

A few facts I learned in bible history class in high school and I'll keep it real simple:

The bible, though inspired by God, was written by man over 2000 years ago.

The bible has been translated from numerous different languages hundreds of times.

Words and their meanings change through the years.

SouthavenTiger Wrote:I always have to shake my head when people quote bible scriptures especially when they quote them in certain instances as if they know the exact interpertation.

A few facts I learned in bible history class in high school and I'll keep it real simple:

The bible, though inspired by God, was written by man over 2000 years ago.

The bible has been translated from numerous different languages hundreds of times.

Words and their meanings change through the years.

If one says that the scripture cannot be interpreted anymore b/c its lost its clarity down through the ages then obviously you are denying the preservation by God. At this point, if that were true, its just another religious book w/ some truth in it. Gods Word claims to stand forever, so lets put it to the test. You can compare most bible translations right now w/ 4th Century copies that still exist today and there is very little variation. Human will alone couldnt get something translated constantly for 16 centuries, enduring cultural/language issues w/o variation. You can compare all the major doctrines w/ writings from the 1st century and you have very little variation on these main and clear issues. God can preserve His word by His might throughout the ages and the word/cultural changes. He's not just sitting in heaven hoping we translate it correctly. He's causing it to be preserved. How many cultures and hands and word meaning changes has it endured since the 4th century? An astonishing #. But yet its still the same. This is preservation at its best. It was written in common Greek so the common man could understand and be led to life. Clarity for all was the very reason it was written. Even those that couldnt read in that time had it read to them (as history verifies) and they understood, thanks to it being in the common mans greek.

tigerstev1178 Wrote:If one says that the scripture cannot be interpreted anymore b/c its lost its clarity down through the ages then obviously you are denying the preservation by God.

Actually I was saying it can and is interpreted many different ways depending on the interpreter and/or their motivation.

This article was posted on another thread a while back. I think it is appropriate in this situation. It talks about how Reggie White learned Hebrew and went back and translated the original texts of the Bible.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=dw...&type=lgns

klg316 Wrote:This article was posted on another thread a while back. I think it is appropriate in this situation. It talks about how Reggie White learned Hebrew and went back and translated the original texts of the Bible.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=dw...&type=lgns

Just a tidbit of what Reggie found:

"He would teach me what he learned. He found, first off, (that the) King James (Bible) was taken out of context, a lot. A lot of words were added. A lot of words were subtracted.

"He found that in the Torah, in Hebrew, things that may have been taken literal shouldn't have been. Some things that were idioms at that time, today people don't understand those idioms because they were their time. Just like in 40 years, people aren't going to understand our idioms.

"Reggie felt like the churches had become polluted because they were following man's tradition instead of God," Sara said. "We felt like early on, (the) idea (of churches) was right, but then later on it was polluted because now, instead of going with what God was saying, they added to The Word. They added their opinions rather than just reading.

"Now we have preachers preaching their opinion which distorts The Word. It should be (called) opinion churches, or motivational speakers.

SouthavenTiger Wrote:

tigerstev1178 Wrote:If one says that the scripture cannot be interpreted anymore b/c its lost its clarity down through the ages then obviously you are denying the preservation by God.

Actually I was saying it can and is interpreted many different ways depending on the interpreter and/or their motivation.

2 Peter 1:20-21 states this:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Yes, man tries to corrupt the Truth. However, God has ensured the Truth is incorruptible. If we are willing, the Truth will be revealed. Unfortunately, most people accept certain doctrines without testing them against God's Word. Now, if you try to say that there is no correct interpretation of His Word, then you are deceiving yourself. I know God has ordained the KJV as His Word because it has been proven over and over as correct in its translation.
If you want to believe Reggie White, then that is your perogative. Many people who choose to stay enslaved in sin find any and every possible way to soothe their conscience about their decision to go to hell. I would rather be in heaven, myself.

Wow, I just found this one.

In answer to Wahoowa's 10 questions, the simple answer is that the Law (Exodus and Leviticus) was given to the Hebrew nation after they escaped from Egypt (Charlton Heston documented that one). The Law was only for the Hebrews. Therefore, if Wahoowa is an Orthodox Jew, and all of the people in the questions are Orthodox, then he would need to take these issued up with the local orthodox leadership.

However, if any of the people in his/her examples are not Orthodox Jews, or whichever group traces its beliefs strictly back to the Law as given from God to Moses (I think that it is the Orthodox), then they are not governed under the Law, so football is ok.

I have seen that list or other variations before, it provides great fodder for those that want to poke at people regarding their Christian faith (typically). However, a little research on their part could help them realize they are barking up the wrong tree.

The Apostle Paul wrote in Romans that we should obey the government that God has set above us, unless the government makes laws that are in conflict with the laws of God. I think that the official term is following the laws of the Highest Authority (think back, obeying older sibling or parents). This answers the slavery and pre-meditated murder that Wahoowa was planning.

Just my two cents, glad to see an Orthodox Jew like Wahoowa sharing his conundrum concerning his/her faith.

fsquid Wrote:If I still listen to the Karate Kid Soundtrack, does that make me censored?

There, thats better

Getting back to the original question of whether or not a few male cheerleaders at Marshall should be kneecapped, well, I think that's what this smilie's for:

so......

where do we all stand on the subject of dinosaurs? let's hear from some of you religious zealots!

Darn it...wahoowa asked a perfectly simple question and it leads to a good honest thread about cheerleaders and teabagging getting derailed.

RandyMcTigerPanther Wrote:Pawr, you are going to have to do better than just cutting and pasting if you are going to engage in this kind of light shining.............

Why? The problem of those in darkness is not with me, it is with the word of God. My opinion is no better than anyone elses. As far as context goes, I ask who, what, when, why, wherefore, and how does it apply to me. That said, in the interest of those who may be seeking God's truth or light, I apologize, I should have taken the time to explain how, while literal, the Old Testament was also a foreshadowing...a picture if you will, of God's plan of redemption for the human race. The Levitical sacrifices were also pictures of the coming atonement through the blood of Jesus. Or how the flood was a picture of God's judgement and salvation. Or how Abraham and the sacrificial offering of Issac is a picture of the LORD and his only begotten son, Jesus Christ....or how Joseph was a "type" or picture of Christ.... Or how David prophesied of Jesus 900 years before hand. Read Psalm 22. Read Isaiah 53. I could go on. If I might recommend reading the book of Hebrews, it expounds on Jesus being our High Priest. For those interested in truth, Jesus fulfilled over 300 OT prophecies. The odds of anyone fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros. May the LORD richly bless you all. He is rich in grace and mercy and a rewarder of all those who diligently seek Him.

tigerengineer Wrote:Wow, I just found this one.

In answer to Wahoowa's 10 questions, the simple answer is that the Law (Exodus and Leviticus) was given to the Hebrew nation after they escaped from Egypt (Charlton Heston documented that one). The Law was only for the Hebrews. Therefore, if Wahoowa is an Orthodox Jew, and all of the people in the questions are Orthodox, then he would need to take these issued up with the local orthodox leadership.

However, if any of the people in his/her examples are not Orthodox Jews, or whichever group traces its beliefs strictly back to the Law as given from God to Moses (I think that it is the Orthodox), then they are not governed under the Law, so football is ok.

I have seen that list or other variations before, it provides great fodder for those that want to poke at people regarding their Christian faith (typically). However, a little research on their part could help them realize they are barking up the wrong tree.

The Apostle Paul wrote in Romans that we should obey the government that God has set above us, unless the government makes laws that are in conflict with the laws of God. I think that the official term is following the laws of the Highest Authority (think back, obeying older sibling or parents). This answers the slavery and pre-meditated murder that Wahoowa was planning.

Just my two cents, glad to see an Orthodox Jew like Wahoowa sharing his conundrum concerning his/her faith.

Excellent work there! Seriously.

Thanks so much for your help.

So, does that mean that you can mine the poop chute while you burn your bulls with a mouth full of crawdads while fondling dead pigs? Some of us Orthodox Jews, that don't pick and choose our Laws want to know. We think that if you use one Leviticus Law to condemn the fags that are fudge packing, then you should abide by the other Laws in Leviticus that you & your family violate daily. It's just an Orthodox Jew thing, so, you wouldn't understand since you obviously want to justify your back door lifestyle.

I'm sure that you're relieved that you can continue with your alternative lifestyle based on your research! Good Job, and thanks for your help!

tigerstev1178 Wrote:

wahoowa Wrote:

MemphisTigerPawr Wrote:You guys already know the answer. Homosexuality is a sin. Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination."
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them." Now, to put this in context...All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There are many abominations unto God, and the sin of Sodom was not limited to homosexuality. Jesus came to seek and save lost sinners. This redemption of lost sinners is described I Corintians 6:9-11. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." Jesus desires that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2Peter3:9) The question is not, are you a sinner, we all have sinned, but have you been washed, sanctified in the atoning blood of the Lamb? Leviticus 17:11, Colossians 1:14, Hebrews 9:14, Revelation 7:14 Have you been born again? Born of the incorruptible Spirit of the Word of God? If you died tonight, do you know where your soul would spend eternity?

Thanks pawr. I knew that you'd come through for me with the verse from Leviticus.
There is so much in Leviticus that's relevant to these days when the Godless hoards
are running amok.

So, thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned
a great deal from you, and try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to
defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that
Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some more advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific
laws and how to follow them. Please help me with the following questions.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours.
They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for
her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend
of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can
you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to
kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of
two different kinds of thread cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to
curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the
trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -Lev.24:10-16.
Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do
with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

Thanks in advance for clarifying these questions!

I am sorry that many Christians have been so unloving towards the Gay community. It is definitely wrong to be so mean-spirited. But having said that, when you start picking apart Gods Word w/ so little understanding of how the Christian is to handle the old testament and you write that much about it, you deserve a response. The Bible does speak clearly about homosexuality and what the Bible says must be accepted. Moreover, the Bible is a precious thing that must be handled accurately and responsibly. This is not always easy seeing that you have various cultural contexts as well as the Greek and Hebrew language.

An abomination is something that God detests. It is a strong word to use. The first 5 books of the OT (called the Pentateuch) reveal God's heart and it is all His word. There is a Moral law (just a theological term for Gods Heart) revealed in the Mosaic law. The Moral nature behind it will never change b/c God doesn't change. It will always be wrong to sleep w/ an animal, cursing towards parents, etc. Are we to forget about the principles at work here b/c the literal rendering is not relevant? The specific details of a particular verse, (like when you start talking about putting people to death)especially in Leviticus, are usually the Mosaic Law, hence abrogated in Christ (see Col. 2:16-23), but the idea that God hates the action is still present. The book is the law of the land in the context we are dealing w/. This was a Theocratic govt run by the word of God. We dont have that today. We must submit to the laws of this land and remember that was intended as the lawbook for that land. Now, w/ Christ coming, we view this book as revealing Gods heart, but the details have been abrogated. As far as eating Shrimp and Shellfish, in Acts 10: 9-16, Peter is told to rise, kill and eat and call no food unclean that God has cleansed. When it comes to eating, we have our conscience and the freedom in Christ to eat what we see fit. The Mosaic Law being abrogated in Christ is a very big interpretive point in scholarly scriptural interpretation. There are two ditches: Totally forget what God says in Leviticus and call it irrelevant or do the commands of Leviticus in detail. Both are wrong. In short, in our day, Mosaic Law=abrogated in Christ BUT Moral Aspect of that Mosaic Law=His attitude regarding all the various topics covered. The answers to all your questions above are answered w/ Christ Abrogating the Mosaic Law, yet still holding the Law as VERY valuable and still Gods inerrant word b/c it reveals His attitude on all these matters. Food would be an exception as he has cleansed that for the Gentile and left that matter to the conscience.


Other scriptures
----I Cor 6:9-11 (these believers in christ USED to be ungodly...such WERE some of you, but now they've been cleansed...saved. Homosexuality is listed in the long list of sins they used to commit)
---I Tim 1:9-10 (sodomites...gr word referring specifically to male homosexuals)
---Jude verse 7
---Galatians 5:19-21 (if homosexuality is fornication like these other verses imply, then this is another passage that should invoke fear before God)

I always detest the name calling and sarcasm that goes on in these exchanges. I am more about truth and making sure GOD is represented rightly. I cannot help but be angered when I see someone misquoting scripture. I will be glad to exchange thoughts on this issue. I hope that you are interested in searching God's Word for the truth. The truth sets us free to live a life in Gods will....I can attest it's a very peaceful and abundant life.

Thank you for the single lucid response to the questions. I've been out of town, and will reply with my thoughts after I get through the 280 emails. Seriously, thanks for not being a knee jerk cut and paste responder.

Quote:For those interested in truth, Jesus fulfilled over 300 OT prophecies.

Truth? To me truth means the ability to prove beyond a doubt. Science is filled with truths, religion is based on its membership having faith in things unbelievable and unprovable. I think you are confusing the two.

wahoowa Wrote:

tigerengineer Wrote:Wow, I just found this one.

In answer to Wahoowa's 10 questions, the simple answer is that the Law (Exodus and Leviticus) was given to the Hebrew nation after they escaped from Egypt (Charlton Heston documented that one). The Law was only for the Hebrews. Therefore, if Wahoowa is an Orthodox Jew, and all of the people in the questions are Orthodox, then he would need to take these issued up with the local orthodox leadership.

However, if any of the people in his/her examples are not Orthodox Jews, or whichever group traces its beliefs strictly back to the Law as given from God to Moses (I think that it is the Orthodox), then they are not governed under the Law, so football is ok.

I have seen that list or other variations before, it provides great fodder for those that want to poke at people regarding their Christian faith (typically). However, a little research on their part could help them realize they are barking up the wrong tree.

The Apostle Paul wrote in Romans that we should obey the government that God has set above us, unless the government makes laws that are in conflict with the laws of God. I think that the official term is following the laws of the Highest Authority (think back, obeying older sibling or parents). This answers the slavery and pre-meditated murder that Wahoowa was planning.

Just my two cents, glad to see an Orthodox Jew like Wahoowa sharing his conundrum concerning his/her faith.

Excellent work there! Seriously.

Thanks so much for your help.

So, does that mean that you can mine the poop chute while you burn your bulls with a mouth full of crawdads while fondling dead pigs? Some of us Orthodox Jews, that don't pick and choose our Laws want to know. We think that if you use one Leviticus Law to condemn the fags that are fudge packing, then you should abide by the other Laws in Leviticus that you & your family violate daily. It's just an Orthodox Jew thing, so, you wouldn't understand since you obviously want to justify your back door lifestyle.

I'm sure that you're relieved that you can continue with your alternative lifestyle based on your research! Good Job, and thanks for your help!

All I did was point out that the Levitical laws were given to the Hebrew nation. As best I can tell, the only people on the planet that could still be considered as falling under that description would be the Orthodox Jews.

You make several statements about me and my personal life that are wrong. What button did I push to get this stream of junk directed at me?

Do you have to follow all of the laws of every foreign country? No, because they are not meant for you. Do you have to follow all of the Levitical laws? Not if they are not meant for you.

However, the Bible does say that God does not change his mind. If He considered something an abomination, such as beastiality, 3000 years ago, He considers it an abomination now.

tigerengineer Wrote:

wahoowa Wrote:

tigerengineer Wrote:Wow, I just found this one.

In answer to Wahoowa's 10 questions, the simple answer is that the Law (Exodus and Leviticus) was given to the Hebrew nation after they escaped from Egypt (Charlton Heston documented that one). The Law was only for the Hebrews. Therefore, if Wahoowa is an Orthodox Jew, and all of the people in the questions are Orthodox, then he would need to take these issued up with the local orthodox leadership.

However, if any of the people in his/her examples are not Orthodox Jews, or whichever group traces its beliefs strictly back to the Law as given from God to Moses (I think that it is the Orthodox), then they are not governed under the Law, so football is ok.

I have seen that list or other variations before, it provides great fodder for those that want to poke at people regarding their Christian faith (typically). However, a little research on their part could help them realize they are barking up the wrong tree.

The Apostle Paul wrote in Romans that we should obey the government that God has set above us, unless the government makes laws that are in conflict with the laws of God. I think that the official term is following the laws of the Highest Authority (think back, obeying older sibling or parents). This answers the slavery and pre-meditated murder that Wahoowa was planning.

Just my two cents, glad to see an Orthodox Jew like Wahoowa sharing his conundrum concerning his/her faith.

Excellent work there! Seriously.

Thanks so much for your help.

So, does that mean that you can mine the poop chute while you burn your bulls with a mouth full of crawdads while fondling dead pigs? Some of us Orthodox Jews, that don't pick and choose our Laws want to know. We think that if you use one Leviticus Law to condemn the fags that are fudge packing, then you should abide by the other Laws in Leviticus that you & your family violate daily. It's just an Orthodox Jew thing, so, you wouldn't understand since you obviously want to justify your back door lifestyle.

I'm sure that you're relieved that you can continue with your alternative lifestyle based on your research! Good Job, and thanks for your help!

All I did was point out that the Levitical laws were given to the Hebrew nation. As best I can tell, the only people on the planet that could still be considered as falling under that description would be the Orthodox Jews.

You make several statements about me and my personal life that are wrong. What button did I push to get this stream of junk directed at me?

Do you have to follow all of the laws of every foreign country? No, because they are not meant for you. Do you have to follow all of the Levitical laws? Not if they are not meant for you.

However, the Bible does say that God does not change his mind. If He considered something an abomination, such as beastiality, 3000 years ago, He considers it an abomination now.

So, eating shellfish is the same as taking it up the ass for you?

nm

wahoowa Wrote:

tigerengineer Wrote:

wahoowa Wrote:

tigerengineer Wrote:Wow, I just found this one.

In answer to Wahoowa's 10 questions, the simple answer is that the Law (Exodus and Leviticus) was given to the Hebrew nation after they escaped from Egypt (Charlton Heston documented that one). The Law was only for the Hebrews. Therefore, if Wahoowa is an Orthodox Jew, and all of the people in the questions are Orthodox, then he would need to take these issued up with the local orthodox leadership.

However, if any of the people in his/her examples are not Orthodox Jews, or whichever group traces its beliefs strictly back to the Law as given from God to Moses (I think that it is the Orthodox), then they are not governed under the Law, so football is ok.

I have seen that list or other variations before, it provides great fodder for those that want to poke at people regarding their Christian faith (typically). However, a little research on their part could help them realize they are barking up the wrong tree.

The Apostle Paul wrote in Romans that we should obey the government that God has set above us, unless the government makes laws that are in conflict with the laws of God. I think that the official term is following the laws of the Highest Authority (think back, obeying older sibling or parents). This answers the slavery and pre-meditated murder that Wahoowa was planning.

Just my two cents, glad to see an Orthodox Jew like Wahoowa sharing his conundrum concerning his/her faith.

Excellent work there! Seriously.

Thanks so much for your help.

So, does that mean that you can mine the poop chute while you burn your bulls with a mouth full of crawdads while fondling dead pigs? Some of us Orthodox Jews, that don't pick and choose our Laws want to know. We think that if you use one Leviticus Law to condemn the fags that are fudge packing, then you should abide by the other Laws in Leviticus that you & your family violate daily. It's just an Orthodox Jew thing, so, you wouldn't understand since you obviously want to justify your back door lifestyle.

I'm sure that you're relieved that you can continue with your alternative lifestyle based on your research! Good Job, and thanks for your help!

All I did was point out that the Levitical laws were given to the Hebrew nation. As best I can tell, the only people on the planet that could still be considered as falling under that description would be the Orthodox Jews.

You make several statements about me and my personal life that are wrong. What button did I push to get this stream of junk directed at me?

Do you have to follow all of the laws of every foreign country? No, because they are not meant for you. Do you have to follow all of the Levitical laws? Not if they are not meant for you.

However, the Bible does say that God does not change his mind. If He considered something an abomination, such as beastiality, 3000 years ago, He considers it an abomination now.

So, eating shellfish is the same as taking it up the ass for you?

No